9 Comments

  1. jacopo
    15 December 2009 @ 16:06

    Yup, what you say is no doubt XKE a fact.. it is time that I follow vs project and all these things I had capita. The point is that the former colonies (as venetie) che hanno ottenuto l’indipendenza hanno trovato poteri molto forti a sostenerle per motivi di natura economica e geopolitica: penso ai paesi dell’ex jugoslavia, di cui si è favorita l’indipendenza per tagliare le gambe alla Serbia (come ora si fa sostenendo l’indipendenza del Kossovo). But the point is that now these countries are in fact “neo-colonies” EUR-Anglo-American (kosovo, bosnia, croazia), albeit formally independent. Or African countries, a cui si è concessa l’indipendenza per finta, perchè quei poteri finanziari che sostenevano l’occupazione coloniale a loro danni ora finanziano i loro governi “free and independent”. in conclusion, un’indipendenza fittizia. as fictitious independence is that required by the PNV and other Venetian parties, but just x that they find in the media and you are censored: they are functional to the system, you break. X qst nessun giornale vi darà mai spazio: It has perhaps never given space to genuinely anti-system movements?. Now, l’europa è disposta a tollerare solo tali forme di pseudo-autodeterminazione.
    Even in light of this, The reference to international law matters to a certain point, XKE (as well as himself writes Della Luna) il diritto è in realtà sempre fondato sull’arbitrarietà e la legalità è sempre un’adeguamento ad uno stato di cose predeterminato (often it sedimented with a consensus building). For example: European treaties are all unconstitutional x the Italian constitution, quindi le direttive europee applicate nel territorio dell’italia non avrebbero valore legale (xò are considered”Legal” xkè-based decisions “in alio site” respect to the seat legislative); your back, xò, l’italia è illegale xké la sua istituzione è contraria al diritto internazionale dell’epoca, (ma la decisione di creare l’italia è stata presa a tavolino in altra sede, then it is deleted by replacing arbitrarily law) etc. (Schmitt knows something, who has spent his life searching for a foundation of the rule of law without ever find).
    sono d’accordo sul fatto che non esistano gli “Italian” (x continuous QST to use quotes), ma in verità tutti i popoli nazionali sono frutto di un’invenzione, sometimes at the table (We think one of them is to “Jewish people”, which it is a false colossal historical), semplicemente in italia l’eterogeneità etnica è tale da pelesarlo + ke in other countries: Belgium, Spain, united kingdom were not national, ma in realtà nemmeno germania, France, etc. lo stesso tentativo di creare uno stato nazionale veneto porterebbe presto o tardi all’irridentismo friulano (although prov di Udine has always Venetian, the Friuli has its own language and no one can deny him the right to be “nation”). Lo stesso popolo veneto tout-court va considerato un’invenzione: ad is, in 1797 many Jacobins padovani (naively) festeggiarono l’arrivo di napoleone sentendosi “Set Yourself Free” Venetians, who had in fact won the other provinces “Venetian” centuries before. Questo non significa che le identità etniche non esistano, but simply that there are as “formations in place”, quindi solo come entità concettuali. Ecco perché puntare più all’idea di COMUNITÁ che a creare nuovi etno-nazionalismi (funzionali all’impero). for this, in my opinion, è meglio partire da ciò che politicamente esiste già , an Italian state, albeit fictional, per riaffermare la sovranità nei confronti dei poteri sovranazionali. ovviamente attraverso progetti che creino consapevolezza e puntino all’autogoverno delle comunità : then to a “resignification” the concept of STATE, Building anti-communal and supra-individual despotic (come plasmata dall’assolutista Thomas Hobbes, father of “Democracy” modern) horizontal construction and cooperative in communitarian sense (that federalism, but better than the Swiss). Starting from the base (ie individuals), xkè without it, the pyramid collapses (rebuilding new pyramids would not be very useful). So then, created over time and consciousness this new paradigm, lo scoglio del diritto ci verrà stavolta in aiuto, to legitimize the state of affairs thus created (then “law” as the finding of a state of existing things, not as something external to uniform: so also think Heinz von Foerster) Moreover, la rivendicazione dell’autogoverno delle venetie (who look, From Venetian, With sympathy) rischia di essere escludente xké rischia di trovare un’alzata di scudi da parte della popolazione non veneta ivi residente oppure da chi è ancora affezionato al mito garibaldino (a raising of instinctive shields, unreasoned, given ke vs is certainly not a racist project-indeed!- ma è necessario pensare anche all’aspetto mediatico). Su Della Luna vale qnt scritto all’inizio: he thinks Venetian, Lombardi, ecc possano raggiungere l’indipendenza creando alleanze economiche con altre aree d’europa (ke what I think you think you anke) as did Slovenia, but that so were venetie “to break free” finirebbero per essere colonie franco-tedesche pronte a fornire manodopera e servizi in cambio di..libertà fittizia! Do you think ke njuhspäipers or Austrians would protect our small family businesses or our environmental heritage? is an example kiaro southern Italy, ke è stato sfruttato attraverso lo stato dai capitalisti toscano-padani sin dall’unificazione (while x us Venetian applies a principle of opposite exploitation: We pay the state, Only because this creates dependency networks in the south with our skei). About that, mi piacerebbe sapere cosa ne pensi dell’euroregione Veneto-carinzia-FVG inaugurata di recente?
    I admit ke my approach to the question is + philosophical, but certainly no less practical. despite my clarifications, cmq are conducive to self-government project, if only XKE helps to wake people up and to create a legal break even with QST stato..e qnd a scheme breaks, emerge new worlds.
    Thank you

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  2. jacopo
    14 December 2009 @ 17:26

    la via dell’autogoverno non esclude la via monetaria? Yes and no.
    NO xkè il concetto stesso di autogoverno è alla base di qualsiasi tentativo di riaffermazione della sovranità popolare autentica: sovranità e autogoverno non si danno l’uno senza l’altra. BUT YOU because you talk about “Venetie” (legitimate), ma in che modo affermare la validità giuridica di tale entità se il nostro stesso diritto nazionale (al quale ti appelli x la famosa legge del ’71) It is about to be dismantled? sure, ci sono le leggi europee ed internazionali ma in che misura l’UE sarà disposta ad accettare le venetie e non semmai il “Veneto”? I think for example the project of PNV ke go in a direction of conciliation with QST europe: independence of the Venetian, adozione dell’euro..insomma: a fraud! (why the PNV is more space in the local media compared to your movement) then if I think of PD x manifest an independent Venetian state, 2 + 2 = 4. Just xkè your movement refers to the concept of self-government can not be accommodated in QST international order, in cui si vuole che la società sia governata dall’esterno, pur dandole l’illusione di autogovernarsi: l'”Europe of the Regions” It goes exactly in the direction QST! Basically: not likely to be too heavily in Europe and remain QST “in canvas trousers”? therefore likely to become exclusionary xkè it assumes to speak only to the Venetians, while a project of national currency reform would guarantee wealth and abundance of resources (economic and not only) to all “Italian”: It would be a lottery x Venetian, southern, ecc..x all. So would have the advantage of finding “human resources” across the country and get a better result in faster times ..(QST in my opinion is the “limit” Also the proposed Della Luna: think that any foreign economic forces can have at heart the interests of the Venetians). I think of projects like PRIMIT or better -still- lo SCEC..ciò non toglie validità alle venetie, which remains a very intelligent project “dangerous” for the system, but it is to integrate it into a larger effort, all’interno del quale si possa cooperare per portare a casa risultati concreti. All’inizio magari una moneta complementare (like the one indicated by Gallons along with Della Luna) agganciata all’euro (or a network of + coins), so ke the obvious benefits brought by this create consensus x then be able to do a real reform..
    vs about the project of public money, I heard about it but could not find anything specific, if maybe you could tell me some links I would be happy to inform, so then I know of +
    Thank you, in sympathy

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  3. ultrazolfo
    14 December 2009 @ 17:09

    to stay on the piece!. :”The evasion of the South paralyzes Italy and destines it to collapse”.
    The title is possible’ semplificare tout court :” il sud affonda l’italia. WHAT HIC et NUNC HAVE TO DO to speed up the process, which is’ GIA’ irreversible ??”.
    Given that from Veneto “it doesn't matter to me’ ” of the Italic fate, what are the actions to be taken to seal the Italian default, like yesterday Argentina, today Iceland, tomorrow Greece…epoi epoi…guess ?.
    I always remember that revolutions(American and French) they were born of taxes and misery. Now, of the first component, we have “enough”; attendiamo il tracollo dell’economia e potremo anche contare sulla “empty belly”.
    ….I tremble anxiously for the closure of Marghera…..that slowly,…. MUST DIE !!!….E’ a matter of hours or days !!!.

    The metalworking of Veneta e’ uno ZOMBIE od un “dead man walking”.
    The trade unionists continue to repeat Tibetan mantras and have not noticed that “l’armata rossa” he defeated us without firing a shot, covering us with tons and cubic kilometers of containers.
    Bellocchio did not understand that China and’ nearby, ma e’ inside us.
    We have finally exterminated the oppressed masters and…… contemporanemante….we will have produced an endless infinite’ unemployed.
    ….just what we need, including the bosses who will now have time to discuss taxes, Why’ the business e’ disappeared.
    …and while we are waiting for the default, public employees are caught in or under it, given that they find them, once in a while, to bed …ill…….
    Why’ we do not make some demonstrations against the best and against the 150 years ??????.
    In fact, they fooled us with a scam plebiscite.
    Today they do the same and tomorrow as well.
    What we MUST do to accelerate the collapse ???.
    serene Health
    Martino

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  4. Maurizio
    14 December 2009 @ 15:41

    Dear Loris,
    I seem to read the same things I read, I see and hear everywhere. Se al governo c’è la sinistra tutti scendono in piazza per contestare. Se al governo c’è la destra… same soup.
    E’ this is the power game to disorient the citizens, politicians have learned this well. But the citizens are too, Luckily, Understanding.
    I do not seem to read in any newspaper or listen to any television program the merits of this government, which also has gaps. L’ultimo evento che gira ovunque da ieri sera è la violenza subita di Berlusconi a Milano dove un folle gli ha scagliato un oggetto in faccia rompendogli due denti ed il setto nasale. Everywhere they talk about it but, mind you, each second
    or your own convenience. C’è chi dice che se l’è cercata perché i cittadini sono allo stremo, who says he was warned that a madman could commit an attack. The right-wing mass media, on the other hand, speak differently.
    The problem behind it all, from my opinion, it is the left movement, unable to propose but very good at arousing hatred, disputes and clashes. E quando ci riescono attribuiscono le responsabilità all’avversario: see the G8 in Genoa, see the demonstrations in Rome and those in Milan where disobedient protesters apply the guidelines of the left.
    What a shame

    Reply

    • loris
      14 December 2009 @ 16:05

      But you too end up falling into the trap of “be divided and are governed by” right left, while yesterday it was DC-PCI.
      I am beginning to think that the problem is generational and that a solution could be to leave all those above the 50 years or after the second parliamentary term. What do you say ?

      Reply

  5. jacopo
    14 December 2009 @ 13:56

    Dear Loris,
    mi è sembrato che dalle sue parole si evinca quasi un invito a cavalcare l’onda della globalizzazione e dell’unificazione europea..tralasciando i (albeit very important!) dark sides of the treaty of lisbon (which in fact builds a supranational and not democratically elected dictatorship), however, I would like to underline that all the problems you consider (which are the ones from which his proposal for self-government of the Veneto was born, as far as I understand) they are the result of a much more subtle mechanism, which now holds almost all the nations of the world in harness (except a few “rogue countries”), ossia il meccanismo di ingegneria sociale che ha alla sua base la proprietà privata della moneta (bce, Fed, etc) and credit seigniorage (FRACTIONAL RESERVE). A mechanism created by politics, but almost totally out of his control. ritengo quindi che l’unica soluzione per tutti i popoli del mondo, Venetian, Italians and southerners included, and building a new consensus paradigm to effectively create monetary reform. this awareness would then open the doors to one “resignification” del concetto di stato e ad un ripensamento dei rapporti di questo con l’europa, as well as its confederal or communitarian reorganization. ma la via seguita da qst’europa è l’opposta: in essa non c’è più libertà per i veneti, but more slavery! if we all, tired of rogue politics and an oppressive state, we unite in projects that start from the bottom to achieve a common result (such as monetary reform) truly revolutionary, then we could free ourselves from our chains much faster and more satisfactorily. Do you forgive me, but the gist of my speech is: se si invitasse la gente a costruire davvero un modello di società fondata sulla proprietà pubblica della moneta, a better result would be obtained, più soddisfcente, più concreto e in tempi più rapidi di quanto si possa fare proseguendo sulla via solitaria di un’autogoverno che nessun giudice o commissario europeo ci vorrà mai riconoscere (in realtà non esistono leggi, ma solo interpretazioni ed interpretazioni delle possibili applicazioni!) se non a patto di fondare l’ennesimo staterello massonico, in cui magari si parlerà ed insegnerà il veneto e si vedrà sventolare il nostro leone, ma non ci sarà più spazio per la libertà , con una moneta privata..!
    questo mio commnento non vuole essere distruttivo o provocatorio, ma solo esortare (umilmente) ad una riflessione. complimenti cmq x il suo lavoro di sabotaggio (verso lo stato), xkè una voce scomoda fa sempre comodo! 🙂
    Jacopo Castellini

    Reply

    • loris
      14 December 2009 @ 15:52

      dear Jacopo,
      my speech does not exclude yours, Rather.

      La via monetaria è certamente una uscita possibile uscita dall’oppressione occulta del Signoraggio, e noi delle Istituzioni di Autogoverno da anni stiamo elaborando una moneta nostra di proprietà dello Stato, ie citizens, on the basis of what is indicated by various authors, including Marco della Luna and Antonio Miclavez.

      Però la tua ipotesi dello smascheramento dell’Europa oppressiva secondo me non è imminente e mi pare che non faccia i conti con la furbizia della BCE.
      In fact I believe that for the next ones 10 anni l’Euro sarà sempre più moneta di riferimento a causa di un dollaro sempre più debole ed emarginato.

      Questo deriverà più che altro dalla creazione o tendenza verso la creazione di una moneta mondiale basata sulla ponderazione di più monete, metals, precious and oil, recently proposed by the Shanghai group (russia, China, Venezuela) and from Arab countries. Questo determinerà la fine del signoraggio degli USA sul mondo, e quindi la fine dell’impero americano che da consumatore importatore dovrà ritornare esportatore passando per l’autarchia, The crisis, and the internal recession.

      If anything, the problem is to identify who can create a sovereign currency outside the world mechanisms that you indicate, and today I only know the Venetie, che per altro è anche la zona più produttiva d’Europa, not for this reason the one with the highest disposable income per capita since it is stolen.

      You are willing to work on this ?

      Reply

  6. carlo
    13 December 2009 @ 08:40

    E’ ALMOST ALL OF HIS SPEECH IS TRUE,MA, FORGET THAT FISH STINKS FROM THE HEAD, WHO HAS USED THE PEOPLE TO BEHAVIOR IN THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED?, WHO HAS PERMITTED RECRUITMENT IN THE PUBLIC ADMINISTRATIONS WITHOUT THE NEED?WHO HAS CREATED USELESS BODIES? AND THE EXAGGERATED NUMBER OF PARLIAMENTARIES, AND THE EXORBITANT PENSIONS THAT THE LORDS GOVERNOR FEEL AFTER 2 YEARS SIX MONTHS AND A DAY ON THE FACE OF THE COUNTRY!, AND THE WASTE OF PUBLIC MONEY?
    then, it is not’ COLPA DEL POPOLO SE L’ITALIA E’ ungovernable,MA,OF ALL THE PAST POLITICAL CLASS THAT GIVEN THE BAD EXAMPLE TO THE ITALIAN PEOPLE. Greetings ,carlo

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